Web lists-archives.com

Re: Browser vendors win war with W3C over HTML and DOM standards




In <news:bcedneeSp_VeCWzBnZ2dnUU7-Q_NnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what »Q« graced us with on 5/30/2019 
> 7:46 PM:
> > In <news:UYudnRvdp9t9423BnZ2dnUU7-QPNnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >   
> >> My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS48 graced us with on
> >> 5/30/2019 7:57 AM:  
> >>> On 5/29/19 10:06 PM, Sailfish wrote:    
> >>>> My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS48 graced us with on 
> >>>> 5/29/2019 1:43 PM:    
> >>>>> On 5/29/19 10:47 AM, »Q« wrote:    
> >>>>>> In <news:BZ6dndjo5vm9-3DBnZ2dnUU7-Q_NnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> >>>>>> Sailfish <NIXCAPSsailfish@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>    
> >>>>>>> REF:
> >>>>>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/browser-vendors-win-war-with-w3c-over-html-and-dom-standards/ 
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [excerpt quote=\"
> >>>>>>> An industry group made up the four major browser vendors, such
> >>>>>>> as Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla, have won a
> >>>>>>> tug-of-war with the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the
> >>>>>>> standards body for the World Wide Web, effectively proving
> >>>>>>> that without their support, the W3C's ability to regulate web
> >>>>>>> standards is nonexistent. \" /]
> >>>>>>> When competitors own standards criteria, 'standards' becomes
> >>>>>>> an oxymoron.    
> >>>>>> The article sort of makes it seem that the major browser
> >>>>>> vendors (is Mozilla really still "major"?) have tighter
> >>>>>> control of the WHATWG standards than they actually do.  Anyone
> >>>>>> can contribute to the discussions (kinda like W3C);  the
> >>>>>> standards editors who make the decisions about what's in or
> >>>>>> out are supposed to take all the input into
> >>>>>> account, and AFAIK they have a pretty good reputation for doing
> >>>>>> so. Them main power the browser vendors have is that if they
> >>>>>> think things are going off the rails, they can impeach and
> >>>>>> replace an editor.  I don't think they've ever done so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I could be off on some or all of that -- I haven't paid much
> >>>>>> attention to the WHATWG since Hixie was the HTML5 editor.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The last time W3C lost to WHATWG, over whether the future of
> >>>>>> the web was HTML or XHTML, the W3C kept its position as "the"
> >>>>>> standards organization by adopting WHATWG's HTML standard.  At
> >>>>>> that point, there was some talk within the WHATWG about
> >>>>>> dissolving itself as no longer necessary.  Now it looks like
> >>>>>> the W3C may be the one to dissolve over the next few years.
> >>>>>>    
> >>>>>>> Also, I always preferred W3C documentation over WHATWG's.    
> >>>>>> Only prefer?  ;)  I always found WHATWG's documentation 100%
> >>>>>> useless.   
> >>>>> Pardon my ignorance but wasn't Mozilla Developer Network
> >>>>> supposed to be the home for documentation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't recall when or where I read about that decision. Might
> >>>>> look later.
> >>>>>    
> >>>> I recall them announcing that as couple of years back:
> >>>> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-documentation-mdn/ 
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> but haven't read much about it since then. Is it just me or is
> >>>> there one major player, and a big one, that isn't included in
> >>>> that announcement?    
> >>> Apple? WHATWG? It does say "other industry leaders".
> >>>     
> >> Apple was the one I meant. To mention Google, Microsoft and Samsung
> >> and NOT Apple suggests a lot, no?  
> > 
> > I went poking around Apple's web site for web developer
> > documentation but I only found docs aimed at iOS-app developers.  I
> > dunno, but maybe Apple just doesn't give a rats' about helping web
> > developers? 
>
> Or maybe they're really pi$$'d at Google for forking the WebCore from 
> webKit and is saying, the hell with 'em'? :-)

Heh, if so, that would be a bit ironic.  When the KHTML folks
complained (years ago) that Apple was making improvements to the
software but not bothering to make those improvements useful to KHTML,
one of Apple's responses was to tell them just to drop their project
and use WebKit/WebCore instead.  

> > Does Safari come with the kind of dev tools Firefox and Chrome do?
> >   
> Since Safari based off of the open source webkit engine, web
> standards would seem to flow from that. As far as MacOS development
> docs, wouldn't their Xcode IDE doc cover their software development
> documentation?

I meant built-into-the-browser tools for inspecting and debugging web
pages.  Safari does have them, but having no Macs on hand I can't tell
how extensive they are.  <https://developer.apple.com/safari/tools/>
and <https://support.apple.com/guide/safari-developer/welcome/mac> -- I
don't know why I didn't find that yesterday.



_______________________________________________
general mailing list
general@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general