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Re: [Mingw-msys] forking issue on Windows XP?




On Saturday 08 December 2007 14:11, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > If you think that running MSYS in a native Woe32 console means
> > running cmd.exe or command.com, then perhaps you should question
> > your own understanding of the issues, before branding others as
> > incompetent.
>
> The native console on Windows XP is cmd.exe.

No, it *isn't*!  This discussion has come up before, not so many weeks 
ago.  cmd.exe is a *shell*; the console is a container, in which to run 
a shell; it provides the infrastructure to manage the interface between 
the user and the shell.  cmd.exe is by no means the only shell which 
can be run in a native Woe32 console; sh.exe, from MSYS, is just as 
much at home there.

> > > Think resizing the window (not that hard, everybody else seems to
> > > do it just fine).
> >
> > Yes, this is about the *only* real limitation of the native
> > console. Console2 is able to do this, while still maintaining
> > proper interaction with the stdio streams; that's why I suggested
> > that their *technique* may be worth exploring.
>
> I tried Console2 twice.  The first time I did, it had massive
> problems rendering the text properly.  But my second try did not
> confirm that, and I did not have time to reproduce the exact setup of
> the first try to find out what was changed.
>
> > > Think copy/pasting (you have to enable it manually!
> >
> > One time *only*, then you can forget about it.
>
> One time per box/reinstall.

Sure.  I only use one Woe32 box at a time; (couldn't tolerate more), and 
I've never done a reinstall, (and if I did, it wouldn't be Woe??).

> Oh, and per user who downloads MSys.

And each user will have their own preferences anyway.  I don't consider 
five minutes in the 2-year life cycle of my Woe32 boxes to be too high 
a price to pay, to configure the console to my liking.

> And on some setups (don't pretend you have not see them) per reboot,
> because the admins reset the registry on boot.

I've *never* seen any such thing, and our admins impose some asininely 
draconian restrictions on their users.

> > > you have to _right_ click to finish the selection!
> >
> > So what?  Sure, it's a little bit different, but you can quickly
> > get used to it.  I don't see this as a particular problem.
>
> So we disagree.

And must, apparently, agree to do so.

> > > You can forget about multi-line selections if the first line of
> > > what you want to select does not start in the first column).
> >
> > Yes.  This can be a bit fiddly, but achievable nonetheless.
>
> Yes.
>
> And you can move to a new house by bike.  It is just very
> inconvenient.

Hardly a particularly useful analogy, I think.

> > > Think scrolling back with a keyboard shortcut.
> >
> > This is a limitation; I've learned to live with it.  Console2 can
> > do it, just like in the KDE konsole on my Linux box, so no reason
> > an MSYS work alike couldn't be developed.
>
> I can live with it, too.  However, I like to live a _happy_ life.
>
> > If you are suggesting Earnie is incompetent, [...]
>
> I came nowhere near that.  Neither will I, ever.
>
> > We live on their OS platform [Windows], so we just have to do the
> > best we can with what they provide.
>
> No, I live on planet earth.

As do I.  I meant that we, as a project providing MSYS, live on Woe32; 
if we weren't saddled with Woe32, we would have no need for MSYS.

> When I have to work on Windows, I try to 
> solve the issues beforehand, rather than live with limitations.

I don't have the energy for writing lots of Woe32 specific code.  I need 
gvim, and a shell to run pdfroff; MSYS sh.exe in the native console is 
fine for my needs, and its limitations don't bother me at all.

> That is the reason we rewrote spawnvpe() in msysGit, since the native
> version of that function is too limiting.

The entire family of spawn and exec functions is utterly broken; that's 
why we (MinGW) provide the execwrap library, which I originally wrote 
as part of the Woe32 port of groff, (GNU troff), for the FSF.

> Actually, we have quite a 
> lot of examples where we do not just take what they provide, since it
> is not good enough.

Sure.  We also have added quite a bit of extra functionality ourselves.  
However, most of us can live with the console limitations; it isn't a 
burning priority for us to provide a replacement, but if anyone wants 
to develop and contribute one, we'll be happy to consider it.

Regards,
Keith.

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