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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 06:03:39PM -0400, bw wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <20190528202437.ro7qososkbvmdpzb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >bw wrote: 

[ Dan Ritter ]
> >Debian is not supposed to be a highly opinionated distribution, unless
> >the opinion is "there should be lots of options".  Claiming that "once
> >you decide to deviate from debian defaults, you really can't expect
> >anyone else to sympathize too much" is just... incorrect [...]


[ bw ]

> These are some really great comments Dan, and I'll think about your point 
> of view.  I've been using debian a little while, and not sure I'd agree 
> that is is not an opinionated distro.  Maybe it was not supposed to be, 
> but I have seen quite a few things added or changed in the distro, and 
> yeah I'm talking pulseaudio, systemd, gnome, firefox/chromium, among 
> others that make me wonder if anybody is in charge, or do we just get what 
> upstream puts on the plate or what?

Let's agree to differ, bw. I am a Debian user since longer than I care
to remember (I think it was Bo I fell in love with, but my brain is
old, so...)

My Debian (stable/stretch) installation has no pulseaudio, no systemd, no
gnome. It is my day-to-day workhorse. It takes anything I throw at it
with a smile.

> Hundreds of bugs in dozens of packages go unfixed, denied, ignored... 
> browsers just dumped in the repo and updated like what once every two 
> weeks now I get 300mb of packages?

That's normal: Debian is a huge distro. Fixing bugs happens one at a
time. And often, there are human things: differences in opinion, arguments,
sometimes ugly ones. Debian is a social project, i.e. about a lot of
people herding themselves -- and that is difficult. We humans tend to
be a messy bunch.

For a voluntary project, I'd say Debian is doing astoundingly well.

Personally, I don't like every turn Debian has taken, mind you. But
to me, it's the best distro out there.

> It's obvious that we entered some kind of rapid development model a few 
> yrs ago.  I got systemd installed a few yrs ago on my jessie system, and 
> had no idea for months that it even existed, or there was a change... now 
> that maybe was kind of insidious.  But hey, that's water under the bridge, 
> we are where we are, and where we are is if you are an average user, don't 
> mess with defaults unless you want to spend a lot of time, and be on your 
> own doing research sometimes for years to solve your problems.

It does take some work to keep the reins in one's hands. But you'll
always find helpful people out there.

> I sure did not mean to offend, just thinking out loud, take it for what it 
> is worth.

I don't think you offended anyone. But my experience still disagrees
with what you write: Debian is perfectly viable without systemd/pulse/Gnome.

And the coolest thing? this is thanks to lots of maintainers who keep
the SysV scripts in "their" packages alive, although they possibly
prefer systemd. So... *thank you* to each one of you!

-- t

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