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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)




On Tue, 28 May 2019 12:19:22 -0400 (EDT)
bw <bwtnguy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <20190528071022.45725f73@debian9>
> 
> 
> Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@xxxxxxxxx>
> >On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
> >bw <bwtnguy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >  
> >> In-Reply-To: <[????] 20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
> >> 
> >> ...  
> >> >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> >> >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> >> >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.    
> >> 
> >> Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the   
> >cake.  
> >> I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of 
> >> something like this:
> >> 
> >> $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> >> [snip]  
> >
> >Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
> >
> >For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
> >install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
> >
> >B
> >
> >******************************
> >
> >root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd
> >Reading package lists... Done
> >Building dependency tree       
> >Reading state information... Done
> >The following additional packages will be installed:
> >  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
> >libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
> >libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
> >libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
> >pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
> >systemd-sysv wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
> > ^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Suggested packages:
> >  gconf-defaults-service pinentry-doc ethtool pm-utils
> >
> >The following packages will be REMOVED:
> >  sysvinit-core
> >     ^^^^^^^^
> >The following NEW packages will be installed:
> >  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
> >libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
> >libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
> >libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
> >pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
> >systemd-sysv wicd wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
> > ^^^^^^^^
> >
> >0 upgraded, 28 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
> >
> >Remv sysvinit-core [2.88dsf-59.9] [init:amd64 ]
> >        ^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Inst systemd-sysv (232-25+deb9u11 
> >Debian:9.9/stable,Debian-Security:9/stable [amd64])
> >      ^^^^^^^^^  
> ...
> 
> In this case, since you allow recommends, it might be either gksu or some 
> other gnome dependency, or a missing systemd-shim pkg causing this.  Also, 
> some pkgs rely on either one or theother init, and systemd is default init 
> as I mentioned.  Nothing nefarious or insidiuous here from what I see.  
> Maybe you researched the negative opinions about systemd instead of how to 
> use it and what is required to replace it?

During my initial install of Stretch a year ago, I specifically set
apt/apt-get by default NOT to install Recommends automatically.  I'll
check to see if for some reason unbeknownst to me that's changed.

systemd-shim is present on my system.  When I converted to sysvinit, I
just let apt-get do its thing and I haven't modified what it did since
it worked on that first reboot after conversion.  If anything has been
modified since, it wasn't by my hand.  I'll look into it.

> It's okay, I did that too.  I tried for a few months to avoid it.  
> Then finaly I decided the debian way was to try and help fix it, from 
> a user point of view...

I read both sides.  Pro and Con.  Good and Evil.  I'm VERY pragmatic
and thorough.  I tested. Evaluated. Decided: systemd was a behemoth as
an init, too system pervasive and didn't follow the basic Unix
philosophy.  It just tried to do too much, was adopted too soon (before
it was mature enough), and that was a recipe for problems in my
opinion. KISS.

Yes, SystemV is old technology and has its own problems, but since
converting to it was simple, supported, and I was familiar with it, I
decided to go with it. I thought first of installing runit, but that
would have been a bag of snakes at the time.

> Check it out is my advice, it's not nearly as bad as the devuan fanbois 
> claim it is.  I like forks and I'm glad sysV is still somewhat usable, but 
> I have heard threats for awhile now that the sustemd-shim might disappear, 
> which will maybe break support for many pkgs.

I keep up.  It's getting better.  But the problem is apps, etc. having
systemd as a DEPENDENCY.  And that's the programmer's fault. The init
(or any of its parts) regardless of which one it is -- systemd, sysv,
upstart, runit, etc. -- should never be a dependency.  I should be able
to run any init I want without it adversely affecting the system,
the apps, etc.

> It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.

I don't think it's a bug.  Just a dependency issue caused by the way
systemd is designed.

B