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Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?

On 02-09-17, rhkramer@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> On Saturday, September 02, 2017 06:46:33 PM davidson@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > On Sat, 2 Sep 2017, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> > [snip]
> > 
> > > On 02/09/17 13:34, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > >> You can set up both Vim and Emacs as powerful programming editors.
> > > 
> > > These are the *worst* possible suggestions. Both of these editors
> > > require a lot of learning to even use them at all. If the OP follows
> > > your advice, his users will have the impression that all software in
> > > GNU/Linux is as arcane and difficult to use as GNU Emacs and Vim
> > > are.
> > 
> > I somehow doubt that you yourself find Emacs or Vim "difficult to
> > use", or believe their design is "arcane". (Of course, I might well be
> > mistaken. I'm only guessing.)
> > 
> > My contrary view, for whatever it might be worth: In the early weeks
> > of my own initiation to a unix-like operating system, we used
> > Emacs. Accompanied by a cheat-sheet of commonly useful keyboard
> > shortcuts, I found that learning the basics of Emacs in particular,
> > and navigating the self-contained documentation, was an eye-opening
> > introduction to the unix-like world and its universe of reliable
> > tools.
> > 
> > When, many years later, I developed a greater interest in computers, I
> > was happy to discover that
> > 
> >    1. I hadn't been taught only how to ride a tricycle, but had been
> >    riding a full-fledged bicycle all along, and
> > 
> >    2. I would never need to learn to use another text-editor again, if
> >    I didn't want to do so.
> I "grew up" using editors (of a sort) (or card punches) (or teletype machines) 
> on a variety of other OSs (IBM 360, Univac 1108, PDP-8, -11 (and one other) 
> VAX, Foxboro, Westinghouse, (not in sequential order), and eventually DOS, 
> Windows, and Linux.  I didn't encounter Vim or Emacs until I got to Linux.  By 
> then I was very used to GUI editors, a vast improvement over things I had used 
> before.
> I made more than one attempt to learn both, and I do occasionally use vi (when 
> I'm stuck with no other editor), but I wouldn't wish either on a novice 
> programmer.  Further, I don't think they have any advantage over a good GUI 
> editor with features like a scripting language, keyboard macros, outlining / 
> folding, syntax highlighting, and such.

Actually, they do have advantage, plus all those things that you've
mentioned. Their advantage is in the speed of moving around. Plus tones
of extensions, scripts, addons that exist for them. If you search around
for best programming editor, most searches will return vim. Sure, that
does not mean it is best for you. But it is certainly not bad
recommendation. Nor is Emacs. They are about same. But both have
downside. Best downside of Vim I've found would be this:

"Once you're used to it, you won't like other editors

When your fingers have learned Vim's keyboard commands, you'll find
yourself reaching for them even when using other text editors. You'll
get frustrated every time you have to reach for the mouse or move your
cursor letter by letter with the arrow keys. You'll notice every time a
Vim feature would save you time and tedium, and you'll wish the editor
you're actually using had it. You'll wish the editor was Vim. You'll
wish everything was Vim. You'll wish this imperfect world we live in
could somehow become just a little bit more graceful, a little bit more
elegant, by adopting modal text editing as a common paradigm. You'll
wish desperately that this world was that better one. But it isn't. It
isn't. And it never will be.:wq"

Best downside of Emacs would be that once you really start working in
it, you can start living in it. Best upside of Emacs is that it has evil