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Re: Debian Buster release to partially drop non-systemd support

On Tue, 2018-10-16 at 09:57 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Ansgar Burchardt - 16.10.18, 08:53:
> > If some people consistently call others a "cancer", accuse them of
> > "vandalizing" open source, spread obvious FUD and so on, then I don't
> > think they would fit in well in Debian's culture where they would have
> > to accept that packages such as systemd exist.
> I disagree. So far I saw none of the Devuan developers (!) I had contact 
> with doing any of the stuff you accuse them of. I think it is important 
> to see the difference between the comments on random people in some 
> mailing list or IRC channel and *actual* Devuan *developers*.

Let me see how some actual Devuan developers think about systemd:

| I personally find hilarious that most of the people out there are
| still convinced that the systemd-nonsense is just a replacement for
| sysv-init, while it should be clear by now that it is already
| becoming a pervasive cancer...
+---[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ in 20150330170221.GM22458@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ]

| that's exactly what I referred to when I talked of the
| systemd-nonsense as a "cancer". The damage is not merely technical and
| localised to the relatively minor issue of replacing PID 1, as you
| correctly pointed out, but "systemic" and "social". And that's exactly
| why we should be more concerned about it.
+---[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ in 20150331093754.GO22458@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ]

| What we really need is to build sufficient maintainer capacity and
| capability to fork more packages and excise this systemd cancer once and
| for all. [...] If we don't slay the beast, it will continue to
| grow and infect more components ever more invasively,
+---[ Daniel Reurich in https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180619.232314.a3229d06.html ]

As a lazy person I was just grepping for "cancer" in the mail archive
and picked a few examples.  Too lazy to search for other insults.

I'm not alone in seeing this as a problem in the Devuan community.  A
certain Martin Steigerwald pointed out:

| As a honest feedback:
| Currently I do not read much of the threads here.
| Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or 
| infecting people´s systems.
+---[ Martin Steigerwald in 24625919.fzpRARYAEh@merkaba ]

Tolerating this *does* reflect back on project leaders, more so if some
of them also engage in the behavior.

Debian already had a systemd maintainer step back because of abuse from
a certain group of people[1].  As I would like to see systemd still
maintained in the future, I don't think it's worth to try to integrate
the abusers in Debian as package maintainers.

Given that the systemd maintainers also have to deal with sysvinit,
maintainership of sysvinit is probably especially problematic.

  [1] https://err.no/personal/blog/tech/debian/2014-11-16-23-55_resigning_from_pkg-systemd/

> > And no, it's not just that infobot factoid or just random people that
> > are totally unrelated to Devuan.
> A claim without facts. So FUD in itself. I let go on spending energy to 
> prove otherwise.

See above for a few examples.

> In addition to that the infobot factiod may easily have not been from a 
> Devuan developer or someone else related to Devuan:
> golinux@xxxxxxxx - 16.10.18, 03:32:
> > infobot is a bot with a database that references 119770 factoids that
> > can be queried. Each one has it's own individual author and literally
> > anybody can add new factoids to the bot. It has been around for about
> > 20 years. It *allows* Devuan to use the bot services and would allow
> > Debian to do exactly same.�
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181016.013255.cada93dc.en.html
> I put the emphasis on *anybody* here.

Dunno, I saw it used by IRC channel operators.  I would assume that IRC
channel ops are not totally unrelated people...
> So I close with a snippet from the post of KatolaZ mentioned above:
> KatolaZ - 16.10.18, 06:23:
> > Let's try to reduce the useless chit-chat and drama to a minimum,
> > please (and the minimum is zero, in this case), since that's not
> > helpful at all, and does not build packages. I subscribed to
> > debian-devel as well, and will reach out later.
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181016.042148.1688fecb.en.html
> Drama is not helpful to get anything done. KatolaZ already reached out.

Ah, one of the people calling systemd a cancer. Great.