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Re: Bug#886238: marked as done (Please introduce official nosystemd build profile)

On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 10:51:08AM +0000, Debian Bug Tracking System wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 03, 2018 at 03:12:51PM +0300, Hleb Valoshka wrote:
> > Please introduce official nosystemd build profile so downstream
> > distributions can send patches to package maintainers with
> > systemd-less build instead of keep them in home.
> As you have been already told by several people, Debian supports
> systemd-less systems.

Server loads yes.  Anything GUI (beyond last-millenium stuff like fvwm)? 
Nope.  You can find hard dependencies on systemd from core packages of all
desktop environments; requests for fixing those dependencies have been
repeatedly ignored.  It takes just a single maintainer to add such a
dependency and stick with it.

And I for one did such a profile rebuild, exactly as Hleb is asking for.

> If you find bugs running in this mode, please file bug reports.

After enough of such bugs were closed with angry messages (even when
accompanied by tested patches), no one bothers filing new ones anymore.

Especially -shim is a bad joke, even an equivs dummy package seems to work
better (although for basic functionality like suspend or shutdown, you need
to recompile against consolekit -- which is not that good either).

d-i is another place where installing a non-systemd system is pretty hard
for most users, with patches fixing obvious bugs (such as --exclude
not working as documented) rotting in the BTS.

But, not everyone is as hostile as you.  Looks like we have a plan that
might lead to making logind-depending packages work well without systemd

Being no tuits factory, I've done only mechanical preparatory work so far
(unfit for use yet packages: deb https://angband.pl/debian logind main,
so you can't accuse me of only talk no action).  Unfortunately, I got a pile
of responses to FTBFS bugs I filed for an armhf archive rebuild that would
be extremely rude to keep waiting any longer, only after that is dealt with
I'll be able to do more.

WIP elogind packages have surfaced recently, I haven't taken a look yet.
Also, someone else is evaluating CK2.

> Apart from that, I don't see that you managed to describe what a
> "nosystemd" profile would actually do.  This would be the least we would
> need from such a bug report.

This is why we're having this thread: people have already pointed out that
avoiding libsystemd0 is a waste of time.  Worthy idea would be to take a
subset of profile builds some of us have already done, and implement them
inside Debian proper using that fancy new "profile build" syntax.

But, Simon McVittie proposed something better.  As the effort is supposed
to be done by those asking for the change, sounds like time for talk is over
for now[1].  Once the work is done, we'll come back, either presenting
patches or discussing an alternative.

> However what I see is, that you and others instead of actually engaging
> in discussions just referred to personal attacks.  I and others consider
> this unacceptable behaviour on our technical mailing lists and our bug
> tracker.  Please be adviced that I will ask both the BTS owner and the
> list masters to block you from ever posting again if this behaviour
> continues.

You mean, like MikeeUSA references?  Note that he also trolled LKML in the
very same way about grsecurity.  Thus, according to your logic any
grsecurity haters including Linus have no place on LKML and should be
blocked, as they expressed the same opinion as MikeeUSA.

> As I don't think anything new will come up, I'm closing this bug report.
> Don't reopen it, this might just expedite your fate.

It's sad to see suggestions that would fix the problem (such as the build
profile) see such a response.

I'll see if the alternate solution will be enough, but if even some packages
would still benefit from a profile build (pretty likely), I'll reopen this
bug myself -- as having a common profile name would allow a mechanical
rebuild.  Please ban me from the BTS then.


[1]. Some details are worth talking about already, like apt reacting badly
to schemes like:

a-addon Depends: a
b-addon Depends: b
c Depends: a-addon | b-addon
User has b installed, wants c -- yet apt insists on replacing b with a.
We need a way to tell apt that b-addon is the better solution.

But installation troubles are orthogonal to the packages actually working.
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